‘Which one of you is going to kill me?’ The first question comes from Finkelstein. ‘It’s always the one you least expect,’ I reply. Finkelstein points to his assistant. Finkelstein is labeled a ‘self-hating Jew’ by his opponents because, as a Jew, he dares to criticize Israel, which is not at all appreciated.

With criticism, he is indeed very generous and uninhibited. When I say I want to write for workers, he says with a wry smile: ‘Most people who write for workers wouldn’t even recognize a worker if they stumbled across one.’

My father was a worker, as was the father of the young man filming the interview. That shuts him up. For ten seconds. Then we talk about the politics of Israel, the Occupy movement and the presidential election in the United States.

And, as if Finkelstein had just come from the book presentation of psychoanalyst Paul Verhaeghe, he also ignites into a tirade about the commercialization of antidepressants, ADHD and Western values that no longer hold any sway.

During the debate, you said that Israel’s oppression of the Palestinian people is only a small part in a much broader Israeli strategy to dominate the entire Middle East region. How exactly is Israel doing that?

Norman Finkelstein. You have to look at this historically. The Zionist movement that wanted to seize Palestine originally consisted mostly of very poor Jews, mostly from Eastern Europe, the shtetl. They had no power, no money and no army. Palestine was a coveted territory at the beginning of the 20th century. Britain wanted it because it was so close to the Suez Canal, the Germans wanted it to thwart the British and, of course, it still belonged to the Ottoman Empire. So how could they seize it? They went to all the rulers of the time, such as the German Emperor, to ask for support.

That Zionist movement from the very beginning was both nationalistic and imperialistic. David Ben Gurion, pretty much the founding father of Israel, always said that Israel needed the support of a great power to sustain itself. First it was Britain, after World War Two it was France for a while. France needed them in their fight against Egypt as part of their war in Algeria. Since the 1960s, they have hung their cart on the United States.

The United States actually has nothing to gain from the occupation or colonization of Palestine. Israel and the U.S. only have an overlapping agenda at the macro level: they both want to dominate the region. But at the local level, the US does not care whether or not Israel annexes Palestine. The US only needs Israel as an extension of its strategy in the larger region, such as dominating Iran and Egypt, but not at the local level of Palestine.

Does it matter to Israel who wins the US presidential election, Romney or Obama?

Norman Finkelstein. No, there is no essential difference between the two. A presidential candidate will never oppose the Jewish lobby. Why should he? He has nothing to gain from that. And what does he have to gain by openly supporting Palestine? Nothing. Palestine represents nothing. If Palestine did have power, the U.S. would think twice. But now? Does anyone ever do anything about the settlements in Palestinian territory? No, there is only talk about them.

What can people in Belgium and other countries do to help Palestine?

Norman Finkelstein. God helps those who help themselves. There is little we can do until the Palestinians take matters into their own hands. As soon as they do, we can leap into action. The general public must see how the Palestinians suffer for their rights and how Israel oppresses them. That is pure Gandhi. The public needs to see that the Palestinians are also making an effort. And then we can jump on the barricades. Then we can gain support from the general public. The images of oppressed Palestinians demanding their rights combined with the legal texts that say the Israeli wall is illegal. The highest legal court has declared that wall illegal. Yet nothing happens. Now if a million Palestinians march to the wall, and people in Europe join their demands, that wall is gone.

But that collective resistance is gone. Palestinians are now doing their best to still make something of their lives on an individual basis. That’s unfortunate, but I understand that. How can that change? No idea. Sometimes a situation seems totally hopeless, and then suddenly something totally unexpected happens. I taught in Egypt. I found Egypt to be the most apolitical country in the whole region.

I never saw Egyptian students in class. Ordinary Egyptians did not dare speak a word about Hamas or Hezbollah. Politically, people there were like corpses. And then suddenly you have this resistance there and all this mass of people come out again and again to protest. I kept thinking: no, now they’re staying inside. This is Egypt. But no, they came back to the squares anyway. I was dumbfounded.

You never know how things can suddenly turn around. So we have to be prepared. Continue to generate awareness among the general public. A boycott against Israel? No, that makes no sense now. They have to protest themselves first.

Israel and the US are threatening to attack Iran to stop them from developing nuclear bomb. Is there a real chance of them invading Iran?

Norman Finkelstein. No. The American public no longer wants to support another war. That’s the last thing they want. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are not even done yet. In the U.S. at this point, domestic issues are mostly in play. With the economy in the lead. Mediacare? No, not like that. Employment and housing, yes. Foreign policy is not a factor at this time.

Obama is careful not to start a war now, though. That would be a risk and Obama does not take risks. After the death of the U.S. ambassador to Libya, he said he was going to catch the culprits. He should say that. If that can be done via drones, he certainly will. With killing he is perfectly ok, mind you. As long as it can be done without risk.

What role does the Occupy movement play in those domestic issues?

Norman Finkelstein. The Occupy Movement is dead. The movement did some things right, and some things wrong. What they did right? They had the right slogans. It was clear: 99 percent are getting poorer and 1 percent is always getting richer. ‘We are the 99’ is a brilliant slogan. It summed up exactly what people felt.

What they did wrong? They never translated that slogan into a real program. The movement jumped up out of nowhere. It immediately became a media hype, but it had no deep roots with the people. They had demonstrations, but that’s not politics. You have to have a real connection with the public. And they didn’t have that. There was an “us against them” mentality. However, it was the first time you could demonstrate in the streets and feel the sympathy of everyone around you. During the demonstrations against the Vietnam War, you had the feeling that the spectators wanted to kill you. Unfortunately, they did not have deep roots with the population. And the ruling class is not stupid. They felt it was easy to clean up the movement. And then came the bulldozers.

The movement has a very active internet base, doesn’t it?

Norman Finkelstein. So what? In any successful movement, at the end of the day, it’s not about Facebook or Twitter. You have to move among the people. That’s why the communists were so successful, because they built a connection with the people. That’s how you build trust. That’s politics. If you don’t have the power, nor the military, nor the media, you only have the people. That’s all the left has. And to play that asset, you have to live in the midst of them. Facebook and Twitter are just a tool.

Many people think Twitter can replace a real organization. I saw it during the demonstrations in Egypt. I was there with a well-known twitterer. As soon as she got to the demonstrations, all she was doing was tweeting. Now people are shocked that the Muslim brothers have so much influence. Well, that’s no surprise, they did build a real organization.

The secular left movement in Palestine hangs on to high salaries from NGOs in Ramallah. The Muslim brothers won fairly, they worked hard for years to do so. If you don’t want that Islamist alternative, you have to organize. In Egypt I supported Barraddei, but sorry, he never went to a demonstration. He didn’t feel comfortable with the people. Ok, but then people don’t feel comfortable with him either.

During the debate, you also talked a lot about Gandhi. What can we learn from Gandhi?

Norman Finkelstein. Gandhi always started from what was possible. In the 1930s he started his campaign in favor of the pariahs, the so-called untouchables. Why? Because he felt that the broad masses were ready to grant more rights to them. Gandhi was much bolder than he is now portrayed in movies. When people sought his help to enforce, he first asked: are you ready to have your skulls crushed?

Look at those hunger strikes of those Palestinian prisoners. 70 days they fasted! Insane. Well, then you saw that they got broad support and were able to enforce their demands.

So what demands should the occupy movement have had?

Norman Finkelstein. For the US, I would say:

1. a massive employment program

2. cancellation of student loans, because many students are up to their ears in debt.

3. some cancellation of mortgages, many people are losing their homes, this is a very serious problem

4. a progressive system of taxes, more taxes for the rich, less for working people

Is Obama not adressing that?

Norman Finkelstein. No, Obama is very cynical. He is a complete narcissist. It’s just ego with him. Obama is the least political president the U.S. has ever had. He has no real conviction at all. Take Bill Clinton. Who is just terrifying, who knows everything down to the smallest details. He loves everything political, he follows all the deals behind the scenes. His dossier knowledge is phenomenal. Obama is like a sixth-grader who wants to be president of his class. Politics does not interest him.

So how can he be so successful?

Norman Finkelstein. People always say he’s half black. Well, I say he’s mostly half white. Just look at his entourage. In his cabinet, you only see two blacks. Obama goes out of his way to have the kind of black image that white Americans feel safe with. Obama knows perfectly which buttons to push to make white people feel good. Look at how he is handling the banking crisis. His entire entourage is made up of people from the Clinton era.

I don’t see any evidence that Obama is smart. All he does is give hollow speeches. And that pleases people. That’s how he was elected, that’s how he will probably be elected again. Actually, there is no difference between Romney and Obama. They have exactly the same background. They both went to law school. Romney was governor of a rather progressive state, Massachusetts. Romney just has bad luck with his constituency. His constituency is insane. But beware: he can still win because his supporters are fired up. They have a goal, they want Obama gone. As Michael Moore also said: if Americans could just vote from their easy seats and push a button, Obama wins. But if they have to make an effort and trek to the voting booth, it’s not at all a sure thing.

By the way, on a personal level, as a human being, I prefer Romney. Why? Because he is a Mormon. He knew it would be difficult to participate in the presidential election as a Mormon. And he could have easily renounced that, by converting to Catholicism or something. To pave the way. Yet he didn’t. I have respect for that.

What is your impression of ManiFiesta? Is there something similar in the U.S.?

Norman Finkelstein. At similar events in the U.S., people don’t look as normal as people here. They dress wildly and radically, with piercings everywhere. In the US, the left is only concerned with cultural issues, such as racism and minorities. That conventional leftist base of working people is gone in the US. They would also be constantly texting. I don’t see that here to my surprise. It seems to me that you still have a real left front. In the US, the left is a cultural left. You can see that in the differences between Democrats and Republicans. On issues like abortion and gay rights they clearly speak differently, but on other issues there is no substantial difference.

If you could give one message to leftists, which one would you choose?

Norman Finkelstein. I hope they look at the world with an open mind. After all, I personally don’t think the values of the “liberated” West are that great. Yes, you now have the right to divorce. And women have many more opportunities, which is certainly very important. But we should also not be blind to the negative aspects of our Western society. My whole environment is on anti-depressants, all the children are on rilatin, adults don’t want any more children because it’s too much responsibility. They only want their jobs. Families are falling apart. Divorces everywhere.

So is that so much better than the values of Muslim culture? At least there is warmth there and they have been able to keep the family intact. In the West, there is no more warmth. I have lived in both cultures. In my apartment in the US, I don’t know a single neighbor. Suppose I want to leave my house keys with a neighbor. Can I do that? No. In a Muslim culture, you can. I don’t think we should be so sure that our secular way of life is so much better.

Beware, I don’t want to justify all those values. I lived in Palestine for years. Of some friends, in all those years I never once saw their wife. She was always in the kitchen. Terrible, of course. But if I have to choose between the “liberated” values promoted by someone like Salman Rushdie while just getting rid of his fifteenth wife, I still prefer to choose the values of the Muslims.

So should the West go back to being religious?

Norman Finkelstein. I’m an atheist, it’s in my bones, but I’m not smug about religion. An expert on evolutionary theory friend of mine told me, “Most people can’t find their own anus in the dark yet, so what would they know about the universe? I plead for a little more humility and less arrogance. Making the world a little better step by step by all crawling out of our navels. Not just because the world is bigger than our navel, but because being part of something bigger, is a fantastic feeling.

This interview took place in Bredene, Belgium at a festival called ManiFiesta in September 2012.